What follows are the transcripts of an interview with Sakurakan Dojo president David O’Callaghan from the summer of 2019 for one of my graduate projects. In this interview, O’Callaghan talks about how he runs his school and how it interacts with the larger community in Sumner, Washington. This is the first part of a two part interview. Read the second part here.
Martial Arts of Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow: Welcome O’Callaghan Sensei! Thank you for joining us for this conversation!
David O’Callaghan: Thank you for reaching out.
MAYTT: When you first opened your dojo, how did you acquire new students and what types of methods or outlets did you use to acquire those students?
DOC: So, I can give you two examples. When we first opened the dojo, we were through a Parks and Rec organization in the town that I live in and most of our students came to the Parks and Rec organization. About five years ago, we were asked to consider adopting a YMCA in our town. I asked if our judo club would transfer over. Turns out, the YMCA would provide us with the facilities and the mat. And, as a payback for that, they asked us if we would offer a ten-week course throughout the year to provide a beginner’s judo class that they would advertise for us. Through that, we get a constant flow of about thirty to fifty children. We don’t retain all of those but it’s a constant flow through the YMCA.
MAYTT: Based on your dojo’s past and current membership enrollment statistics, when did your dojo see its greatest membership growth? What has been the dominant age demographic and what has been the least?
DOC: Definitely children between the ages of eight and twelve are our highest demographic. Our adult population is much smaller than our children’s population. In the few dozen students we get for the ten-week course, we get maybe fifteen adults, all starting at age eighteen. Though I think adults are a bit easier to retain than children, at the end of that ten-week course, we retain between five and ten adults.
MAYTT: You mentioned before that the YMCA does most of your advertising, specifically for that ten-week course. What types of advertising do you do on your own, if any?
DOC: We do some flyers every now and again. It’s kind of a unique situation and it worked well for us and that there are three other clubs in our area to have the same set up as we do. Where I live, we’re what’s called the South Bound which is half of Seattle. These three judo clubs are set up the same way as us – through the local YMCA – but all of the clubs are independent of each other. We raise money independently. We spend it independently, but we work through the YMCA and what the YMCA does is provide us with a facility, which is obviously a very low cost for us to be as good to rent or anything like that. It works out well for all of us.
We do some of our advertising, mostly flyers and mostly by local schools. We also do a children’s health day that’s sponsored at the YMCA. Now what happens is we’ll do a judo demonstration. We’ve done that for the last few years, and it’s been very positive with drawing in and growing our membership.
MAYTT: From those demonstrations, what demographics usually sign up in the aftermath?
DOC: We tend to get the younger kids after those demonstrations. You know, I can put it that way. A lot of kids don’t choose judo themselves; it’s the parents’ choice to bring them to a martial arts class like judo or something like that. I get a lot of inquiries from parents asking about judo and bringing their children along. Many of the kids know what martial arts are because of movies and television, but those same kids don’t know what a true martial art is, like judo. On the other side of the spectrum, we get a good handful of older kids – like middle and high schoolers.
MAYTT: When did your club see its greatest membership growth? Was there a particular time of year and why do you think that that particular time of year was significant?
DOC: I would say we saw our greatest growth about three years ago and it was we were able to offer three classes a week. We went from offering two classes a week to three classes a week and we divided up our classes to form. We have a beginner’s class, an intermediate class, and an advanced class. When we were able to do that, we saw the biggest jump in our membership. After that period, I would say we’ve seen a drop off probably in the last year or so with judo.
I think that decline was because our middle school aged students were becoming high school students and they were taking on demanding schedules. Our club had to compete with after school activities like soccer, football, and track with our high school students. We are still competing with this school sports and all the other activities the schools offer the students. Also, a lot of the coaches are not very willing to allow their children or the students to do multiple sports during that period. My own son is a good example because he’s been a judoka since he was six or seven and he’s just finished his freshman year in high school, and he played on the varsity soccer team this year. He basically had to stop coming to judo practices during that period of time because they were practicing for four days a week and had two soccer games per week during the twelve-week period that soccer results. So, our biggest drop off in the last year or two has been because we’ve seen a lot of our high school students having to step out. Usually, they’ll come back, but we do lose a couple in that process.
MAYTT: School has been getting more demanding as the years went on.
DOC: It’s crazy – I mean my opinion is it’s absolutely crazy. I grew up doing multiple sports and there was always time to do lots of different things, but what’s happening I see now is high school sports are becoming so focused it becomes so consuming at the expense of everything else. The schools have a rule that you have to attend a certain percentage of practices in order to be eligible to play in the game. This quota forces kids to choose between one sport or another, both school and recreational sports.
The good news, through all of this, some of our high school students come back when their respective seasons are over, but now, if you want to see multiple sports or play on multiple teams during the high school season, now you’re in a difficult situation and it is judo that suffers. They also have homework and normal teenager demands and aspects to do too. After convincing themselves that they can take a leave of absence from judo to participate in school sports and come back afterwards, they start to drift away from judo for almost half the year and never return because of all the demands they decided to take part in. It creates an issue of keeping high school kids invested and engaged.
MAYTT: I can absolutely see where the issue arises. Martial arts writer Greg W. and podcaster Dave Roman claim that judo organizations do not help much in the way of developing and growing small and new clubs/schools. From your perspective, do you see this to be the case? What has been your experience?
DOC: I would tend to agree because the organizations do a good job of maintaining the standards of the art. For one, they are a central organization where you can record grading and keep good records of related material. One thing I do feel is that the organizations are lacking in the tools to help coaches become successful in teaching the art. I’m a member of both the United States Judo Association and USA Judo, and a coach in both organizations. I coach judo as a volunteer, and I have a full-time job. I don’t get paid for judo. I don’t get any sort of remuneration from the YMCA or anything like that. I do it because my son does it and I like sports.
I just got a notification the other day that I have to renew my coaching certification in order to maintain the coach status in my club, and they’ve got all these new regulations. Basically, if you want to be promoted, you better maintain your coaching certification. Trying to do that sometimes is difficult. For me, the closest coaching recertification in the next six months is Las Vegas. So now I have to get on a plane. I have to buy a plane ticket. I have to go down and take time off work. I have to go get a certification. On top of all of that, I have to pay out of pocket for the coaching certification, which is about a hundred dollars, and the background check, which is close to sixty dollars. But the thing is, the closest recertification for me is in Las Vegas, Nevada. Very rarely do you see coaching certification is done in the Pacific Northwest. You’ll see them in California, where there’s a high percentage of judo clubs, and in Las Vegas because there’s a big tournament coming up. You’ll see the recertifications before the big tournament, like I did one couple of years ago in Indianapolis, Indiana because I happen to be on business in Indianapolis. And the Nationals for taking place at the same time. So, I did it there.
What I’m saying is I think the big organizations could do more. They could grow more clubs and they would have more sustainable clubs if they invested in the coaches. Traveling for the coaching certification is not always possible for those coaches to travel and it’s costly and not all of us have jobs that allow us to travel. But the thing is, if I was the only instructor in this class and I’m losing my coaching certification and I have no way to renew it, what’s going to happen eventually? The club is going to fold. Those kids and students are going to look for somewhere else and you’re going to lose kids and students at your judo club. If we take another sport for an example, my daughter plays college soccer and I noticed that the airfare, the lodging, and meals are paid for by the college for these soccer coaches. Compare that to judo and, like I mentioned before, judo coaches are scrambling to pay for their recertification and the airfare to participate in a seminar to get recertified. So, what I’m saying is if you don’t invest in the coaches, you’re going to lose the organization and it will slowly die because you don’t have anybody to continue with.
MAYTT: Just to clarify one quick thing: for the coach recertification, you have to go to Las Vegas or to some other place and participate in a seminar for so many hours, and then you are able to be a coach again?
DOC: Yes. So, for me right now my mind expires in July. I think it’s good for five years when you get it. I’m lucky because I’m actually a USA Judo national coach as well. So, I have that certification so I’m not too worried about it. But I’m in a fortunate position in that I travel for work. I can make some of these judo things kind of work for me. For others, not so much. Take, for example, this brown belt in my club who, I think, is phenomenal, and he’s really invested in the club. However, he’s a police officer and doesn’t have the same flexibility with travel and schedules as I do for work. To even begin the coaching journey, he would have to pay his own ticket, fly down there, pay for the course, take the time off work, and come back, with no real support from the larger organization.
MAYTT: All that seems intensive just to become a coach.
DOC: And that’s what I’m saying. These organizations need to invest in more prolific training. What I see as the problem is there’s no younger guys coming in to help teach and coach. Take our club for example. We are a fairly healthy club. We have about four sensei right now. We offer three classes a week. We are located in Seattle, all the way up in Washington State. These organizations hit the major centers like Las Vegas or Los Angeles, but totally forget about other, smaller centers of training. To get certified, I’d have to travel to one of those major centers just to attend a seminar.
MAYTT: Greg W. also suggests that developing solid judo instructors can help establish smaller clubs and schools. Is this a valid and feasible way for clubs to become more unified in creating a network of like-minded learning institutes?
DOC: Yes I do. The three YMCAs in my area have judo clubs and we all know each other and cooperate together. We’ve filled in for one another during tournaments and such. And I think reaching out to clubs and growing a strong network of sensei is the key to success across. We’ve actually had students train at other clubs within the area because that’s how we grow a community; I think that is the only way judo is going to grow and thrive is we have to have a strong network of sensei. You can’t run like this and not talk to anybody else. It doesn’t help much.
MAYTT: At that point, would it be easier to merge all of these individual clubs into one giant club?
DOC: Maybe I should clarify. I don’t have a problem with a specific organization. I think though what’s happening is we have a lack of good, strong leadership of one unified kind of organization. Why don’t we just train together? I think it comes down to every single one of the sensei, but I know do not do they are not full time in the judo organization e.g., no money in the sport. I think the reason you don’t see a lot of maybe unification is that so many of the sensei have so many other things going on that they’re just keeping their head above water at the moment.
So, I think the question about why not have one big club or why not merge or why not do anything; I think it’s because nobody has the energy or time to actually organize that. I think that might be a possibility, but you need some kind of organization to take the lead and help with that because, at the moment, a lot of these judo clubs are not focusing on much more than survival. I think the sport is strong, but the support services that maintain it are weak. For example, I was at a tournament two weeks ago and I went to the coaches referee meeting and the referees were struggling. They were pleading with the clubs to send them students to train as referees because they were so drastically short of referees. I mean you’ve got the clubs that are just trying to sustain and maintain and now they’re looking to send more of their students to become referees. We haven’t had any step forward to become referees yet mainly because most of our kids are not in that age group but maybe my son would do it. But again, once they become a referee now, they’re almost required to go and help in other tournaments on the weekends and such. It’s a lot for a new referee, along with everything else that goes on in life. Because of this, I think we need a better support and infrastructure to support the sport.
MAYTT: How does your dojo address developing new and future instructors?
DOC: We actually have a pretty good system. We’ve divided our classes up into sections. We have a beginner’s class, which basically is a ten-week YMCA class. In that class, we cover ukemi, how to fall correctly, how to grip properly, and how to tie your belt. There are no throws in this class. So, what we do is have our junior instructors help teach those beginner classes.
At our dojo, we have a structured program for advancing students to become instructors. In our beginner class, students focus on foundational skills like ukemi, grip techniques, and tying their belt. To progress to our intermediate class, they must graduate from the beginner class. Our junior instructors, under the guidance of senior instructors like myself, Tim, or Matt, assist in teaching these beginner classes. We also require junior instructors to accompany students to tournaments, where they learn tournament procedures and gain experience from a different perspective.
In addition to regular belt grading requirements, we have a separate curriculum for instructor training. This curriculum includes learning throws and pins at different stages, culminating in testing to ensure they can effectively teach at a high level. For instance, one of our senior instructors, who is a sixth dan, offers a specialized summer class focusing on advanced randori techniques for brown and black belts.
Furthermore, instructors must undergo various training sessions beyond martial arts techniques. This includes concussion training, team sport training, and YMCA volunteer training, particularly important for those working with children. The YMCA training covers essential aspects of working with kids, ensuring instructors understand and adhere to relevant rules and guidelines.
Navigating the complexities of working with children in a judo environment requires thorough preparation, but we prioritize safety and professionalism. Our structured training approach and adherence to organizational requirements ensure that our instructors are well-equipped to teach and mentor students effectively.
Our club’s approach has evolved over time through trial and error. Since our inception in 1976, we’ve undergone numerous iterations, keeping what works and discarding what doesn’t. We’re fortunate to have a long-standing tradition that serves as a foundation for our club’s practices, while we continuously make tweaks to improve. For instance, a recent adjustment involved our belt progression system. A few years back, we experimented with allowing students to advance to the orange belt without attending tournaments. However, we soon realized this led to a gap in experience for some students who hadn’t participated in tournaments, a crucial aspect of the sport.
We discovered that students were reaching higher belts without ever experiencing the competitive aspect of judo. This was concerning, as they were missing out on essential aspects of the sport and potentially putting themselves at risk. Therefore, we revised our approach. Now, upon graduating from our ukemi class, students are required to acquire a gi and register with USJA. By the time they reach yellow belt, they must have attended at least one tournament, even if it’s a beginner-level event. This ensures they understand the dynamics of tournaments and what is expected of them as judoka.
Constant refinement is key to our program’s success. While many of our practices have been honed over decades, we remain open to change and improvement. Whether it’s adjusting belt requirements or fine-tuning teaching methods, we strive to provide the best possible experience for our students while staying true to the core principles of judo.
MAYTT: In your opinion what separates a good instructor from a great instructor?
DOC: In judo, I believe any instructor who has reached that level deserves recognition. Most instructors, in my opinion, are good, having achieved a certain standard of competency. However, what sets apart the truly great instructors is their dedication to the sport and their ability to invest substantial time with their students. Personally, I devote two and a half hours on Wednesdays and Fridays to my students, understanding the importance of consistent training and guidance.
Yet, what distinguishes a good instructor from a great one often lies beyond their control. Over my nearly three decades in judo, especially in recent years, I’ve observed a shift towards instant gratification among both parents and students. There seems to be an expectation that progress should be rapid, with belts earned swiftly. This mentality, perhaps influenced by the immediacy seen in other sports or martial arts, poses a challenge.
When I began my journey in judo, I understood that mastery would take time and dedication. However, nowadays, there’s a disconnect between the expectations of students and the reality of the commitment required to excel in judo. Some expect rapid advancement, akin to what they see in MMA or other sports, without recognizing the need for sustained effort and practice.
This clash of expectations often leads to frustration and dropout, preventing both the student and the instructor from reaching their full potential. Instead of fostering long-term growth and mastery, the focus shifts to constant turnover with beginners, hindering the development of both parties. It’s a challenge that many instructors face, navigating the delicate balance between meeting immediate desires and instilling the values of dedication and perseverance that are essential in judo.
MAYTT: A lot of people that I spoke to have mentioned similar feelings about instant gratification.
DOC: You know, I would definitely say that my perspective on this topic has evolved over time, especially since I have both a son and a daughter engaged in different sports. My son, who’s now fourteen, has been practicing judo since he was around six or seven years old. Witnessing his journey firsthand, I’ve seen the dedication and effort required to excel in the sport. We’ve spent countless hours traveling to competitions and training sessions. However, it’s been a different experience with my daughter, who’s heavily involved in soccer. The amount of time and commitment needed to succeed is consistent across both sports.
One of the challenges I’ve encountered, particularly with judo, is managing the expectations of both parents and students. I’ve had parents inquire why their child hasn’t received their yellow belt after just three weeks of classes. It’s important to emphasize the significance of mastering foundational skills like proper falling techniques before progressing to higher belt levels. Safety is paramount, and rushing through ranks without acquiring essential skills can lead to injuries.
Occasionally, I hear comparisons to other martial arts like karate or taekwondo, where students seem to advance more quickly through numerous belts and stripes. However, I emphasize that judo follows a different progression system, with fewer belts and a focus on mastery rather than rapid promotion. While other martial arts may offer more frequent belt advancements, it’s essential to recognize that true proficiency takes time and consistent effort.
Ultimately, in judo, as in any sport or discipline, the journey to mastery requires patience, dedication, and a deep understanding of fundamental techniques. It’s about nurturing a long-term commitment to continuous improvement rather than seeking instant gratification through belt promotions. As an instructor, my goal is to instill these values in my students, guiding them on a path towards genuine skill development and personal growth.
What I’m trying to convey is that there’s often a clash of expectations between parents and instructors, which relates back to your initial question about what distinguishes a good instructor from a great one. In my experience, it ultimately comes down to the amount of time an instructor is willing to invest in their students. I have a remarkable student named Sage, who is only nine years old but has already shown incredible dedication to judo. She’s been practicing at multiple clubs and is nationally ranked. Sage understands that achieving excellence in judo requires consistent effort and time investment. Despite her young age, she possesses a level of maturity and commitment that sets her apart.
Sage’s journey serves as a testament to the importance of parental support and understanding. Her parents recognize that success in judo, or any endeavor, isn’t something that happens overnight. It’s not about instant results; it’s about putting in the necessary time, effort, and focus to truly excel. Unfortunately, not all parents grasp this concept. Many are unfamiliar with the dedication required for success in judo or any sport. They may expect quick progress or fail to appreciate the long-term commitment necessary for their child to reach their full potential.
In essence, what separates a good instructor from a great one is their ability to cultivate a supportive environment that fosters dedication and perseverance in their students. It’s about instilling values like patience, resilience, and hard work, qualities that are essential for success not only in judo but in life as well. As an instructor, I strive to impart these lessons to my students and their parents, guiding them on a path towards long-term growth and achievement.
This is the first part of a two part interview. Read the second part here.
Martial Arts of Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow 