What follows are the transcripts of an interview with Sakurakan Dojo president David O’Callaghan from the summer of 2019 for one of my graduate projects. In this interview, O’Callaghan talks about how he runs his school and how it interacts with the larger community in Sumner, Washington. This is the second part of a two part interview. Read the first part here.
MAYTT: Recently, Aikido Journal along with other martial arts writers claimed that traditional martial arts, like judo, karate, and aikido, have been on a decline since 2004. Has this been your experience and has your dojo been affected in any way?
DOC: In terms of our dojo’s growth and retention, I’ve noticed a decline in the number of long-term students over the past couple of years, despite experiencing significant growth back in 2004. While there’s a steady influx of new students, many seem to lose interest or commitment after a few years. This trend contributes to the perception of a decline, even though the overall numbers may appear to be increasing due to new enrollments. However, when we delve deeper into the data, we find that the turnover rate among long-term students is higher than desired.
When comparing judo to other sports like soccer, for instance, there’s a notable difference in the opportunities and support available to young athletes. High school soccer players, for example, often receive attention from college recruiters and have opportunities for scholarships and advancement. In contrast, judo lacks similar pathways and incentives for young practitioners. This lack of visibility and support for judo at the collegiate level may contribute to the declining retention rates we’re observing.
To address this issue, I believe there’s a need for colleges with judo programs to actively promote the sport and its benefits, such as potential scholarships or career opportunities. By increasing awareness and visibility, we can create more incentives for young judoka to continue their practice into adulthood. While our overall numbers may remain stable or even increase slightly, the key metric lies in the retention of long-term students. Ultimately, sustaining a thriving judo community requires not only attracting new students but also fostering a supportive environment that encourages their continued participation and growth over the years.
MAYTT: Those same writers also contend that the eighteen to twenty-nine age group/demographic is almost vacant in judo as well as other traditional martial arts dojo across America. Has this been your experience? If so, what do you think is contributing to the decline and can these traditional martial arts survive without those specific age demographics?
DOC: I don’t believe we can survive without the eighteen to twenty-nine age demographics, particularly because many parents in this age group tend to join judo themselves, leading to increased involvement from their children. For example, one of my students, who is in his early thirties, has embraced judo, and now his two boys are actively participating in the sport as well. This demonstrates the vital role that this age group plays in shaping the future of judo, as they often become the next generation of instructors and committed parents who sustain the sport’s growth.
Having a strong presence in the eighteen to twenty-nine demographic ensures a steady pipeline of future instructors and dedicated practitioners. My own son’s interest in judo is largely influenced by my involvement in the sport, showcasing how parental engagement can inspire the next generation. However, it’s crucial to recognize the challenges that younger parents may face, such as financial constraints or logistical issues related to attending tournaments.
In our club, we’ve observed a consistent influx of new members in the eighteen to twenty-nine age range, albeit smaller compared to the eight to fourteen-year-old group. While we typically see two to three new members joining every few months in the younger age group, they tend to stick around and become long-term members. However, one area where we struggle is attracting and retaining girls in judo. While initial interest is high among girls, maintaining their commitment to the sport proves challenging, highlighting a need for targeted efforts to address this gender imbalance.
MAYTT: It is interesting that you bring up women in judo. Do you think that gender imbalance is because of the nature of judo – getting up close and personal – compared to other physical activities available to women?
DOC: I believe the challenge of attracting and retaining girls in judo isn’t solely due to the physical nature of the sport or its intensity. Rather, it’s often about the sense of community and representation within the club and tournaments. Girls may feel isolated as one of the few females in the club, lacking a support network or feeling out of place among predominantly male competitors. This lack of community can be particularly discouraging, especially when they see themselves as outnumbered in tournaments.
For instance, during a recent high school championship event in the Pacific Northwest, my son had a substantial number of competitors in his category, while a younger girl I know had only a handful in hers. This disparity highlights the challenges girls face in judo, where they may feel outnumbered and overlooked compared to their male counterparts. While some girls, like Sage, find their place and thrive in judo, others may struggle to maintain their enthusiasm as their peers drop out, leaving them feeling isolated.
Maintaining a strong presence of girls in judo is crucial, but it’s not always easy to sustain. While we may see an initial influx of girls at the beginning stages, retaining them over time proves challenging. Various factors may contribute to this, including conflicting schedules with other sports like soccer, where the girls’ season often coincides with tournament season in judo. This clash of schedules can create competing priorities for female athletes, making it difficult to fully commit to judo.
Overall, addressing the gender disparity in judo requires not only creating a welcoming and supportive environment for girls within the sport but also considering external factors that may impact their participation and retention, such as conflicting sports schedules. By addressing these challenges and fostering a sense of community and inclusion, we can encourage more girls to embrace judo and realize their full potential in the sport.
MAYTT: In your opinion, how can traditional martial arts, such as judo, adapt to the changing modern martial arts landscape and the American business model? Is there a way for schools to maintain tradition and integrity while staying current with the times?
DOC: Yes, I definitely believe there’s an opportunity for judo to evolve and adapt to current trends while maintaining its traditional roots. One aspect that often draws attention is the world of mixed martial arts (MMA). Many people are fascinated by MMA fighters, and it’s understandable why – it’s dynamic and captivating. One of the instructors at a local class here is also an MMA fighter, and his involvement in both worlds garners a lot of recognition.
Judo has a unique offering with its emphasis on solid grounding and technique, which are valuable skills in any combat sport. However, where judo could perhaps improve is in integrating itself more effectively into modern trends like MMA. By showcasing how judo principles can be applied in various contexts, including MMA, we can attract a broader audience and demonstrate the versatility of the art.
One of the biggest challenges we face is the lack of effective marketing for judo. Many people aren’t even aware of the existence of judo clubs in their area, let alone the distinctions between judo and other martial arts like Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. For example, someone might mention they practice judo at a Gracie Barra, not realizing that it’s actually a jiu-jitsu academy. There’s a misconception that judo is just about ground grappling, but it’s so much more than that.
We need to do a better job of promoting what judo truly is and what it offers. It’s not just about ground techniques; it’s a holistic martial art that teaches discipline, respect, and self-defense. By enhancing our marketing efforts and educating the public about the unique benefits of judo, we can attract more people to the sport and ensure its continued growth and relevance in today’s martial arts landscape.
MAYTT: Could you provide a definition of what you mean by grounding?
DOC: Sure, I’ll provide you with an example from my personal experience. Throughout my life, having lived in various countries, I’ve always been able to find a judo club wherever I go. Whether it was in Hong Kong a few years ago or any other place, I could easily don my judo gi and join a practice session. Even if I didn’t speak the local language, I understood the procedures and could participate seamlessly. This universality of judo is one of its most remarkable aspects—it truly is a global sport.
In contrast, when I look at MMA training camps or even Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (BJJ) gyms, I notice a lack of consistency. Each place seems to have its own style or approach, and while this can lead to diversity, it also means there’s no uniformity in training methods. MMA fighters may excel in discipline and fitness, but not everyone can thrive in that environment. On the other hand, judo offers a more inclusive atmosphere where anyone can join and participate, regardless of their background or skill level.
I’ve observed that BJJ, in particular, can be more discriminatory in its practices. For instance, I witnessed someone being prevented from opening a BJJ club due to business-related restrictions and competition with existing clubs. The hierarchy within BJJ clubs can also be rigid, with promotions and oversight heavily influenced by club owners or “Professors.” In contrast, judo tends to maintain a fair and even-handed approach to promotions and organization oversight.
What sets judo apart, in my opinion, is its grounding. With a solid foundation in judo, you can travel anywhere in the world and find a club where you can participate and feel welcomed. Judo’s structured approach ensures consistency across different clubs and regions, offering a reliable and inclusive experience for practitioners of all ages and skill levels. This universality and consistency are what make judo truly special and accessible to people from all walks of life.
MAYTT: I have read that traditional martial arts offer ways to help build a person’s character. Do you think MMA and BJJ offer the same ways and avenues to help build a person’s character?
DOC: I can’t speak for MMA, but I firmly believe that the discipline and etiquette demonstrated in judo are invaluable. However, we often encounter challenges in maintaining discipline, especially within the structure of organizations like the YMCA. For instance, under YMCA rules, we’re not allowed to single out students for reprimands, even when safety is at stake. This creates a constant struggle between adhering to the YMCA’s regulations and ensuring the safety and integrity of our judo practice.
For example, if a student refuses to participate and walks off the mat, we can’t directly reprimand them according to YMCA guidelines. However, we can’t simply allow them to disregard the rules either, as it poses safety risks during practice, especially with younger students. This conflict became particularly challenging a few years ago when an instructor intervened to prevent two students from accidentally causing harm during groundwork. Despite acting in accordance with judo principles, the instructor’s actions were misinterpreted by a parent, leading to a lengthy investigation and the loss of the instructor’s volunteer status with the YMCA.
This incident underscores the importance of discipline and structure within judo. While it may not always align with external regulations or popular sentiment, maintaining these principles is essential for the safety and integrity of the sport. Judo teaches valuable lessons beyond physical technique, instilling respect, responsibility, and adherence to rules. Without these fundamental principles, we risk compromising the integrity of the sport and undermining its core values. Therefore, despite the challenges and conflicts we may encounter, it’s imperative to uphold the discipline and structure that define judo.
MAYTT: Podcaster Dave Roman claims that judo focuses too much on the competition and sport aspect, to the point where rank advancement is linked to the amount of wins a judoka earns during tournaments. Do you and your school require a certain number of wins at a tournament to receive the next belt?
DOC: Absolutely not. Winning is not what we require when students participate in tournaments. What we prioritize is simply their attendance at these events. Tournaments serve as an invaluable tool for both students and coaches to gauge their progress and learn from others in the judo community. Often, when confined to the bubble of our own club, it’s easy to become complacent and think everything is going well. However, exposure to different coaching styles and techniques at tournaments can open our eyes to new possibilities and ways of improving.
We don’t mandate wins because that would be unrealistic and counterproductive. Instead, we encourage students to attend at least one tournament before reaching the orange belt level. This exposure allows them to witness the broader judo community, realize that judo is a popular and enjoyable sport, and boost their confidence. While initially facing defeat might be discouraging, it’s a necessary step in their growth process. It teaches them resilience and the importance of hard work and dedication.
However, I do believe there’s a fine line in the tournament culture. Some clubs and organizations prioritize tournament success above all else, which can lead to an overemphasis on certain techniques and an exclusion of others deemed “too dangerous.” While safety is paramount, I believe all aspects of judo should be explored and practiced responsibly. Finding a healthy balance between tournament participation and maintaining the integrity of the sport is crucial for its long-term sustainability and growth.
MAYTT: OK. Do you know of any school or club that you require a certain number of competition wins for progression?
DOC: No, I’ve never encountered such a requirement in judo. In fact, in the club where my son also practices, the instructor emphasizes character over wins or losses. He often tells his students that what truly matters is how they handle themselves, whether they win or lose. He encourages them to display good sportsmanship by shaking hands with their opponents and their coaches, win or lose. This emphasis on character is something I deeply appreciate and have witnessed receiving praise from others.
The idea of requiring a certain number of wins from judo students seems foreign to me and goes against the core principles of judo. From my understanding and experiences in the judo community, such a requirement would be highly unusual and contrary to the ethos of the sport. Judo, as I know it, values mutual respect, discipline, and personal development over mere competition outcomes.
We don’t impose tournament attendance requirements on adult students, especially those around sixteen years old, unlike our younger participants. The reason behind this difference lies in the fact that adults often pursue judo for reasons other than competitive ambitions. While adult students are certainly encouraged to participate in tournaments if they wish to, there’s no mandate for them to do so. This approach reflects our understanding that adults engage in judo for various reasons, not solely for the purpose of competition.
Now, addressing the question of why adults choose to participate in judo, it’s a multifaceted matter. For many adults, judo offers a unique blend of physical activity, mental stimulation, and social interaction. Some may be drawn to judo as a means of staying fit or learning self-defense techniques. Others find fulfillment in the mental discipline and focus that judo fosters. Additionally, judo provides a welcoming community and opportunities for personal growth, regardless of one’s age or background.
Overall, the reasons adults engage in judo are diverse and personal. Whether it’s for physical fitness, mental well-being, or simply the joy of practicing a martial art, judo offers something meaningful to individuals at all stages of life.
MAYTT: What do you offer to older adults compared to younger students?
DOC: I’ve observed several reasons why adults choose to participate in judo. Firstly, many enjoy the opportunity to engage in the sport alongside their children who are also involved. It’s a unique advantage to share an activity where both parent and child can actively participate together. Unlike some other sports like soccer, where parents are limited to cheering from the sidelines, in judo, they can be on the mat alongside their child, which adds to the fun and bonding experience.
Secondly, I believe many adults are drawn to judo because it offers a self-paced approach to physical activity. They appreciate the flexibility to engage in the sport as much or as little as they desire, tailoring their involvement to their own fitness level and schedule. Our instructors understand and respect this aspect, recognizing that adults have diverse commitments such as work and family, and prioritize their safety and well-being.
Additionally, adults often find appeal in the practical skills that judo imparts, particularly in self-defense. The confidence and empowerment gained from learning these skills are significant attractions for many adult participants. They appreciate the opportunity to develop these capabilities while also enjoying the physical and mental benefits of judo practice.
In summary, the opportunity to participate alongside family members, the self-paced nature of the sport, and the acquisition of practical skills like self-defense are key factors that attract adults to judo. Each individual may have their own specific motivations, but these aspects collectively contribute to the appeal of judo for adult practitioners.
MAYTT: Returning to Dave Roman, judo does not offer much to an older adult compared to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (BJJ), going as far to say that judoka going to BJJ tend to stay in BJJ. Rank is not tied to competition or wins. Is there any truth to that statement?
DOC: I would argue that judo and BJJ are fundamentally different, making it challenging to compare them directly. In judo, the first skill one learns is how to fall safely, while in BJJ, it’s often the guard position. While I may not be an expert in BJJ, I understand enough to recognize the potential dangers. BJJ focuses heavily on grappling from the outset, teaching techniques such as chokes, pins, and holds from day one.
In judo, while grappling is certainly part of the training, it typically starts from a standing position and may progress to ground techniques over time. I witnessed an interesting scenario at a BJJ tournament where one of our judo students, a proficient judoka, competed and emerged victorious by executing throws on her BJJ opponents. This outcome was possible because her opponents were not accustomed to countering throws, allowing her to transition them directly into a pin.
However, it’s crucial to acknowledge that this scenario doesn’t present a fair comparison between judo and BJJ. While judoka may excel in stand-up techniques, they may struggle in pure ground grappling situations typical of BJJ matches. BJJ practitioners, on the other hand, might possess superior skills in ground grappling. It’s about the context and the rules of engagement.
Moreover, judo offers a comprehensive training regimen that includes learning how to fall safely and protect oneself, which may not be as emphasized in BJJ, especially in the early stages of training. While it’s possible that after a year of training, a judoka might develop comparable ground grappling skills to a BJJ practitioner, the initial focus and approach in each discipline differ significantly.
Therefore, it’s essential to recognize the distinctiveness of each martial art and refrain from making direct comparisons that may overlook important nuances and contexts.
MAYTT: It really does. Final question; with the decline of interest in traditional martial arts since 2004, how do you think judo has adapted to the changes in the martial arts industry and the American business model?
DOC: I believe judo has been fortunate in its visibility due to a few key figures. Individuals like Travis Stevens, who won an Olympic medal, and Marty Malloy, another medalist, have helped put judo in the spotlight. Additionally, personalities like Ronda Rousey, who started in judo and gained prominence through MMA and movies, have contributed to raising awareness of the sport. These figures serve as role models and draw attention to judo, especially among younger practitioners.
Comparatively, aikido hasn’t enjoyed the same level of visibility, although it did receive some exposure through various platforms. Whether this exposure was warranted or not is debatable. However, there’s no denying that judo has had more prominent figures to promote its image. For instance, more girls coming into judo might recognize Ronda Rousey, thanks to her media presence, whereas fewer boys may be aware of Travis Stevens, despite his Olympic achievements.
In the Pacific Northwest, judo has a robust following, particularly in high schools. This can be attributed to the strong presence of judo dojos in the region, some of which were established by Japanese instructors. Over the years, these dojos have initiated high school judo programs, further increasing the sport’s visibility among young athletes.
Moreover, judo has adapted well to a business model that allows for lower costs and greater accessibility. Many dojos operate within YMCA facilities, relying on volunteer staff and keeping overheads minimal. In contrast, other martial arts studios often face the challenge of sustaining themselves in commercial spaces, leading to higher membership fees. By integrating itself into a low-cost framework, judo has positioned itself for success and continued growth.
Overall, judo’s visibility and success can be attributed to a combination of factors, including the influence of key personalities, strong community support, and an adaptable business model. These elements have contributed to judo’s resilience and popularity, especially in regions like the Pacific Northwest.
It’s intriguing to delve into these questions because my primary concern, or perhaps apprehension, lies in the declining number of instructors within our organization. The existing instructors are aging, and there’s a lack of robust support to nurture new instructors or assist younger ones. This trend could lead to a reduction in the number of clubs or a weakening of their support systems. This situation poses a significant challenge because, without strong instructor support, the sustainability of our clubs becomes uncertain.
Inevitably, this decline could have ramifications for other martial arts disciplines like MMA. While these disciplines might not feel the impact immediately, over time, they could face challenges as the sources for their techniques begin to dwindle. MMA and other disciplines often draw from various martial arts traditions, but if these traditions start to fade due to a lack of support and resources, it could affect the diversity and depth of techniques available.
This isn’t to say that I hold any animosity towards MMA, Krav Maga, or other contemporary styles. On the contrary, I believe they offer valuable alternatives and contribute to the overall richness of martial arts practices. However, it’s crucial to recognize the importance of mutual support among different disciplines. Rather than pitting one against the other, we should strive to foster a sense of collaboration and solidarity within the martial arts community. This collaborative spirit is essential for preserving the integrity and longevity of martial arts traditions, ensuring that they continue to thrive for generations to come.
MAYTT: Thank you again, O’Callaghan Sensei, for this wonderful talk!
DOC: It was my pleasure.
This is the second part of a two part interview. Read the first part here.
Martial Arts of Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow 