By the invitation of a high school friend, Lyon MacKeegan found himself being geared up for a Society for Creative Anachronism heavy combat bout. Shortly after, MacKeegan joined the rapier side of the SCA and continued has not looked back since. Throughout his thirty-plus years of active membership, he rose to the position of Rapier Marshal in the Kingdom of Artemesia. Today, MacKeegan took some time to talk about the community and openness of the SCA, the communication between Historical European Fencing and the Renaissance Faire, and how rapier fencing has evolved since his joining. This is the first part of a two part interview. Read the second part here.
Martial Arts of Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow: Welcome Lyon! Thank you for joining us today!
Lyon MacKeegan: Thank you for having me! I’m excited!
MAYTT: What first drew you into the Society for Creative Anachronism?
LM: First things first; the thing that initially drew me in, and what a lot of people in the SCA will tell you, is that I really liked fantasy books, sword fighting, and similar things when I was a kid. I’ve been playing Dungeons & Dragons since I was about ten, so role-playing games were a big part of my life early on. Many people in the SCA will say that role-playing games are, quote-unquote, the “gateway drug” to the SCA.
What really pulled me in happened when I was in high school. One of my friends had joined the SCA the year before. One night, while we were rolling dice and playing D&D, he started talking about SCA practice. I asked him about it, and he explained the basics of what the SCA was all about. He encouraged me to come to a practice session. That first practice is what really hooked me was seeing people dressed up like knights (or close to it, since it is the Society for Creative Anachronism), and watching everything unfold. From there, it snowballed. I went to my first event, and soon after, I picked up a rapier again for the first time in probably five or six years. I’ll get into that part more later. But ultimately, what drew me in was my group of friends – the people I was playing fantasy board games and role-playing games with. That shared interest and community pulled me into the SCA world.
MAYTT: You mentioned that your friend told you about SCA classes. What was that first class like and how does the SCA conduct classes?
LM: It was a practice, but there was also a class during the practice. It was focused on armored combat. In the SCA, there’s the armored combat side, where participants use rattan weapons and actual armor and metal helmets, body armor, and all that. Then there’s the rapier side, which is what I eventually got into. But my very first exposure to the SCA, my first practice, was actually suiting up in heavy armor. I have to say, it was kind of painful; some of those guys were bigger than me, and they hit really hard. So my first experience with an SCA class was learning how to fight “sword and board,” as it’s called. That was my first class, my first practice – my first real go at the SCA.
MAYTT: What drew you to rapier instead of the heavy armored fighting?
LM: That’s the question right there. My dad was old-school. He learned fencing, boxing, and judo when he was in grade school, junior high, and high school. He had already done some boxing before coming to the United States, had some experience with fencing, and then picked up judo while in the military. When I was growing up, I didn’t really follow in his footsteps. I did track, but I didn’t do basketball, football, wrestling, or judo, much to my dad’s chagrin. I really didn’t like judo. I’m 6’2″, and when I was younger, it was tough to get my long arms and legs to move the way I wanted them to. So I gravitated toward something I felt suited me better, like track. I could run, I had long legs and it just made sense.
Then one weekend morning, my dad took me to the YMCA and introduced me to my first fencing instructor. I was eleven at the time. That’s really what drew me in. Growing up, I had watched and read a lot of The Three Musketeers, and I really wanted to be a musketeer; I wanted to fight with a rapier. So when I started that fencing class, which was Olympic-style fencing, it really clicked for me. Later, when I got into the SCA, they were in the middle of transitioning away from using foils and epees. At the time, we called the new weapon “Schlager,” a practice weapon from overseas. It had more of the weight and feel of what would have been used in period. That change is what really hooked me. It brought me closer to that musketeer ideal I’d always imagined.
MAYTT: What year did you officially join the SCA?
LM: My first exposure was between sophomore and junior year. That was 1990.
MAYTT: That then begs the question: for essentially thirty-plus years, what has kept you in SCA?
LM: Boy, that one has a lot of layers to it – good question. The thing that’s kept me in and around the SCA has really been a combination of a few things.
There was a period where I took a break; I took a six-year hiatus. My father had passed away, and I just couldn’t get my mind into going to events or competing in tournaments. I was having a tough time and couldn’t take on that one extra thing in my schedule. So I stepped away for a while. But even during that six-year break, what kept me connected was my friends in the SCA. Honestly, that’s probably the biggest reason I stayed involved. These were people who would still come over to my house two or three times a week to game, have dinner, or just hang out, and none of that was SCA-related. It was just the friendships, the relationships. That was the first thing.
The second thing that kept me in the SCA was the competition. It reminded me of the kind of fencing competition I enjoyed as a kid. But it wasn’t so intense that it created any animosity. It was just fun – going out there, trying to best your friends with the skills you’d learned. Everyone was part of this chosen family. We’d go to events, make memories, and stay connected through this back-and-forth camaraderie. That sense of community really kept me in.
And the third thing – well, it might sound a little strange – but it was that the SCA was a relatively cheap form of entertainment. Aside from getting your weapons and gear, most of the stuff you need you already have from camping like your sleeping bag, tent, that sort of thing. You pay maybe ten or fifteen dollars to get into an event, and in return you get to camp out, hang with your buddies, fight the next day, and tell stories about it all afterward. It was affordable, and it still can be if you do it right. So yeah, the three things that really kept me in were: the friendships, the fun and friendly competition, and the fact that it was (and still can be) a low-cost hobby.
MAYTT: It is great that you had support from friends during your six-year hiatus! When you speak about classes, is it strictly for weapons or does the SCA offer other classes based around other historical activities?
LM: Absolutely! That’s a great question. This is one of the things I always tell people when I’m explaining what the SCA is: it’s a hobby with a thousand hobbies in it. There’s not just the martial aspect, there’s everything. There are people who cook using period manuscripts, preparing food as though you were sitting at a table in the year 900. There are people who brew mead, people who sew historical clothing, and even bards who sing period songs or tell stories in the style of the time. There’s basket weaving, loom work – I mean, we could sit here all night and I could list things you can do in the SCA. And for each one of these activities, there’s someone who teaches a class on it. At just about every event you attend, you’ll find classes on how to brew mead from a specific period, how to use a period-style loom, or what types of clothes were fashionable in, say, 1548. From a historical standpoint, it’s like standing in the past and living it. These people can teach you this stuff, and once you’ve learned it, you can take that knowledge and do anything you want with it. So yes, there are absolutely classes.
And of course, there are martial classes too—on how to use a rapier, for example. I’m sure more questions will come up about that, so I won’t go too deep here, but I’ll just say this: one of the best things that ever happened to the SCA was when people started translating period fencing manuscripts, like those by Salvator Fabris, Nicoletto Giganti, or Ridolfo Capo Ferro da Cagli. Once those were translated, the martial aspect of rapier fighting really took off. It wasn’t just “here’s a pointy sword, go stab the other guy.” There was real historical technique behind it; there were martial systems that were usable and teachable. And now, there are classes on all of that too.
MAYTT: With those non-fighting classes, are they all done at SCA events and outside of those events? How do you conduct classes?
LM: Yes and no. Some areas do have regular practices; we don’t just do events. We hold practices, and in some places there are even sword schools. In my area, in particular, there’s a HEMA group, and we’ve done a bit of cross-training with them in some of their classes.
As far as the SCA is concerned, especially when it comes to rapiers – in my area, I’m actually the marshal. That means I oversee safety, making sure everyone’s weapons and equipment are in good shape and meet our rule set. I also teach the local classes twice a week. I cover everything from period styles to more modern interpretations like Black Tigers; if you’ve looked into HEMA, you probably know what that is. So yes, there are regular classes built into our practice schedule, and we meet twice a week. There’s definitely a structured experience for people who come into the SCA and want to train regularly. That said, it’s a “learn at your own pace” kind of environment. We don’t have a formal ranking system like you’d find in aikido. You come in, you learn as you go. If you miss something, we’re always happy to backtrack and cover it again. The structure isn’t rigid. It’s not a curriculum that must be followed step by step. If that makes sense.
MAYTT: Thank you for clarifying. You mentioned that there was a transition in how rapier was taught and contextualized in the SCA. Did you join the organization during that transition?
LM: I’ll just put it this way: I was there from the beginning of all that, all the way up to now, largely because of my friends. Even when I wasn’t active in the SCA, I was still practicing with a sword. There was never a time when I didn’t have some kind of weapon in my hand. That was how I grounded myself, through regular martial practice. That’s just a bit of an aside.
When I started in the SCA, it was literally someone handing you a sword and teaching you some basics that were cobbled together either from what they guessed from the old manuals or from what they remembered from Olympic fencing classes. That was actually where my background was, so I was comfortable with that in the beginning. We made use of what I had already learned in Olympic fencing. Back then, things were looser. There weren’t as many rules. There was no formal scoring system – definitely no electronics. Everything was done on the honor system. That’s another aside, but it’s relevant because at the time there really wasn’t anything translated that explained what was going on in the illustrations from the period masters of defense. It was kind of a guessing game for a while. Then a gentleman named Tom Leoni, hope I’m not butchering his name, translated some important manuals, including Fabris. That was a huge help. With those translations, we could finally start learning what the plates were showing, and things could be clearly explained.
So, to answer your question: yes, I was there through that whole transition. And honestly, it’s much more fun now; following along with the period masters, actually understanding what they were doing and talking about. I hope that answers your question.
MAYTT: It does. I am trying to get a timeline in head. You started in the 1990s and the rapier system was based off of Olympic Fencing, give or take?
LM: Essentially, yes.
MAYTT: When did the transition from that to using historical sources occur?
LM: I think that one is kind of hard to pin down, because in different parts of the country, different people were doing different things. But overall, I’d say the first few steps of that transition started taking place in the late ’90s. It really began to take hold by the early 2000s—maybe around 2010, or possibly a bit earlier. You could really start to see a shift in how people were fighting and in their fighting styles during that time, especially in the early 2000s. That’s when people began using more of the translated historical material, rather than just relying on what they picked up from Olympic fencing or improvising on their own. So, for timeline purposes, I’d place the real beginning of that transition around the early 2000s.
MAYTT: Okay. So, this transition was actually recent in the SCA’s history?
LM: Yes.
MAYTT: You mentioned earlier about the scoring within a rapier duel. How do you as the Rapier Marshall and the SCA go about officially scoring rapier?
LM: The way we keep score in rapier combat within the SCA is based on the honor system. If I land a touch on my opponent with my rapier, it’s their responsibility to acknowledge it and call it. Whether the touch was solid or light, it’s up to them to determine and respond accordingly. Specifically for rapier, a thrust to the face or body is considered a killing blow, and that ends the match. Again, all of this relies on the honor system. If you take a thrust to the arm, you put that arm behind your back and continue fighting with the remaining hand. If you’re struck in the leg, you sit down and fight from a seated position.
There aren’t points awarded in a traditional sense for the bout itself; it’s not tracked with any electronic scoring system. The fight continues until one fighter can no longer continue, either because they’ve lost use of both arms or received a fatal blow. That said, some tournaments introduce scoring systems where points are awarded based on where a hit lands; for instance, whether it was a wounding or killing strike. Some events even simulate a “first blood” style format, where scoring is based on wounding without a fatal blow. These systems vary depending on the specific tournament rules. But in a standard one-on-one bout, it’s purely honor-based and judged by touch alone. And while thrusts are a key component, we also recognize draw cuts, push cuts, and tip cuts. Compared to HEMA, rapier in the SCA tends to be much less percussive.
MAYTT: You bring up HEMA, which took some inspiration from the sea among similar movements and organizations. How much interaction do you have with HEMA practitioners? And if so, what are those interactions like?
LM: I’ve had a lot of interaction with HEMA practitioners. Okay, so we’re going down the rabbit hole a bit here. During my time in the SCA, rapier combat eventually gave way to what we call “cut and thrust,” which is a very close equivalent to HEMA. In fact, many people who were practicing cut and thrust in the SCA transitioned into HEMA when it started gaining traction early on. A lot of those individuals, some of whom were experimenting with the idea of HEMA at the time, were either involved in cut and thrust within the SCA or had taken stage combat classes with me. Many of those who didn’t stick with the SCA ended up staying with HEMA.
When I took a break from the SCA, I was part of a group that choreographed lightsaber fights. That group also overlapped with the local HEMA community. I worked with them for quite a while, attending a few practices, not in a supervisory role, but because of my stage combat background. My friend, who had also done a fair amount of HEMA, brought me in to help. He later moved to Los Angeles and continued training in HEMA there.
Here in Billings, Montana, the local group was part of the SCA when I returned from a six-year hiatus. By that time, they were involved in both HEMA and SCA activities, and I’ve stayed in touch with them. There’s also a group in Spearfish, South Dakota, about four hours away. The head instructor there was in the SCA for a long time before switching to HEMA. He now teaches HEMA classes in Spearfish and was one of the people who encouraged me to return to the SCA. He also introduced me to a different rapier fighting format based on HEMA, which I’ve been able to use both in the SCA and HEMA contexts.
So, I’d say there’s been a lot of cross-play with the folks I know. I haven’t really had any bad interactions—unless, of course, someone brings a longsword to a rapier fight and quickly finds out that sword and dagger versus longsword is a short match. Usually, those interactions are more like, “Yeah, that’s what I did. Sorry, not sorry. Here’s how I did it.” There’s also a HEMA group in Bozeman, Montana, which is a couple of hours west of here. We interact with them during our regional practices. One of the first people I call is my friend up there, and he brings his HEMA group. Due to insurance reasons, we don’t run the practices at the same time, but we do hold them side-by-side. So if someone finishes one practice and wants to join the other, they can. That allows for a different kind of cross-play.
Overall, I’d say my interactions with HEMA groups and practitioners have been very positive.
MAYTT: With having friends in both SCA and HEMA, what has made you want to stay with SCA more than HEMA?
LM: Well, I’m kind of a history nerd. When I was in college, my concentration was on Westward Expansion –pretty much everything that took place on this side of the Mississippi from 1802 to the early turn of the century. That’s where my history nerd side really came out, but I didn’t realize how important it was until I started looking into my own family history from overseas.
One thing about HEMA and the SCA is that there’s a lot of historical study, of course, because you’re studying period manuals and martial forms from those times. But what really grabbed me was learning about what was happening around those periods; what people were doing and living through. That’s what made me stick with the SCA the most. I really enjoyed the period around when Queen Elizabeth died, around 1602 or 1603. That time was the beginning of events leading to the Thirty Years War. I knew a fair amount about that era from college and high school, but I didn’t do much with it until later. What really hooked me was how much I liked that time period, partly because of the books I read growing up, like The Three Musketeers, and partly because it connected to my own family history. The more I looked into it, the more I discovered how much I enjoyed that era. So a big reason I’ve stuck with the SCA is because of that time period and the chance to literally put on the clothes and walk around in that world for three or four days on a weekend, two weekends a month, for however many years I’ve been doing it now. The history part of the SCA is really what has kept me involved more than HEMA. Don’t get me wrong, I watch HEMA bouts a lot, and I really enjoy how the competitive side of HEMA works. But at the end of the day, I’m more of a fantasy guy. I really like having period-looking weapons, period-looking clothes, and the witty banter that we do in the SCA, which isn’t necessarily what you’d hear in HEMA.
MAYTT: So is it more about living the history in its actual context instead of copying the history?
LM: Absolutely.
MAYTT: Is there anything else that you feel that sets the SCA apart from HEMA?
LM: Boy, that’s a good question. I’ve had a lot of talks with people about this, and other than the living history aspect, I think the best way to put it is that there’s a difference between the two cultures. When I say that, I mean the SCA has its own culture in its own way, and HEMA has its own culture in its own way. Neither of them is good or bad, and I don’t think they’re opposed to each other overall. To me, the difference in culture is this: In a martial art like the SCA’s rapier fighting, it’s not about ranking or what you gain or lose from competition. That sets a different tone for how people fight. On the other side, in HEMA, the tone is more about how much you study, what you bring to the table, and progressing through ranks via competitions designed to propel you forward. The goal there is often to win those competitions and be the top competitor at one or several events.
I think that’s where the two paths kind of parallel for a bit and then divide. I don’t see that divide as a bad thing; it’s just a matter of what you want. Do you want to compete, win points, maybe make some money? Honestly, if someone offered to pay me to play with a sword all day, I wouldn’t say no. But if someone said, “Lyon, you can dress up like someone from the seventeenth century and do that all day,” I’d probably choose that instead. That’s because I’m not necessarily driven by competition. I’m compelled to play because of the experience itself. For me, I could pick up a sword and fight just fine in either system. The question is, if I were in HEMA, would it get old after a while, being more of an athlete? Whereas in the SCA, I’m not necessarily an athlete, but I’m still practicing a martial art. I think that’s probably the best way to put it.
This is the first part of a two part interview. Read the second part here.
Martial Arts of Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow 