By the invitation of a high school friend, Lyon MacKeegan found himself being geared up for a Society for Creative Anachronism heavy combat bout. Shortly after, MacKeegan joined the rapier side of the SCA and continued has not looked back since. Throughout his thirty-plus years of active membership, he rose to the position of Rapier Marshal in the Kingdom of Artemesia. Today, MacKeegan took some time to talk about the community and openness of the SCA, the communication between Historical European Fencing and the Renaissance Faire, and how rapier fencing has evolved since his joining. This is the second part of a two part interview. Read the first part here.
MAYTT: It sounds like HEMA is focused on how well someone can perform in a tournament setting whereas SCA is more about hanging out after fighting each other.
LM: It’s really about the bragging rights and how much fun you had. I’ve got to tell you, there’s one thing I’ve noticed, and this is just an aside, that really stands out to me when comparing the SCA and HEMA. It’s not anything bad about HEMA, just something I’ve observed in the SCA. During tournaments in the SCA, I’ve seen people get hit and then fall over laughing so hard. I’ve seen that a couple of times in HEMA too, but it wasn’t quite the same. It’s not about losing the match or missing a move. It’s more that they feel comfortable enough to just start giggling because their opponent caught them in a spot they didn’t expect. They think, “You got me there, and it’s funny, so I’m just going to stand here and laugh for a few minutes.” I’ve even seen people in tears after a fight because they were laughing so hard. It’s really good stuff. So that’s the aside I’d share: beyond the competitive nature, there’s a lot of joy and fun in it.
MAYTT: I will ask the inverse; what are some of the similarities that you have seen, or highlight when you’re in conversation, whenever HEMA is brought up in comparison to the SCA?
LM: Most definitely, it’s about the study of the martial art; so absolutely, the study. I have a friend here in my area, in my kingdom, because the SCA divides the United States into kingdoms. My kingdom is called Artemisia, and it covers the top of Montana all the way down to the bottom of Utah. It stretches over to North Dakota and all the way into Idaho. So, it’s a pretty decent-sized kingdom. One of my friends, who’s also in the SCA, is a master of defense and a big fan of longsword. He has been practicing a lot of Fiore over the last few years. Before coming back to the SCA, I hadn’t heard much about Fiore since I did stage combat, and Meyer was also something I only really encountered when I rejoined the SCA. My friend who studies Fiore puts a lot of time and energy into studying the plates, reading the texts, and working to figure out the period techniques, recreating them as accurately as possible for what we’re doing. Then he puts that into practice, which is the biggest part – it’s what makes it truly a martial art. That’s the SCA side of it.
On the HEMA side, I see just as much study, reading, writing, and a lot of practicing as a martial art. The two really parallel each other closely. It’s crazy because I’ve seen people in the SCA practicing Meyer for years without doing any HEMA at all, and then people in HEMA doing Meyer for years, too. When you finally watch those two groups fight and listen to how they studied and put it together, it’s a little eerie, almost like they’d never crossed swords before. So yes, it’s definitely the study – the actual study of the martial art itself – that’s the core.
MAYTT: You bring up studying the treatises. How important are they for the average SCA rapier fencer?
LM: This relates back to what we were talking about, having the period texts translated. Over the last twenty years, those treatises and manuals have become really important to a lot of people in the SCA. Not just because they give people something to do, that’s true, but also because studying those texts is a big part of what the SCA is about. For example, people study how to put together a period meal, and when someone in the SCA has a period text, they can study it and even teach a class on it without ever picking up a sword. That’s pretty important to them. So yes, those period manuals are just as important to people in the SCA as they are to someone in HEMA studying the exact same manual.
MAYTT: How did you find yourself being the Rapier Marshal of your Kingdom?
LM: Oh, you want to hear that story? Okay, I’ll put a quarter in the Wayback Machine.
When I got into the SCA, I first attended my very first practice up in Bozeman, Montana, which is a couple of hours west of where I am now. There was a marshal there who, when he put me in armor, explained everything to me; told me what I needed to have, where everything needed to be placed, how I needed to hit somebody (like below the knees wasn’t legal), and all that. It was very reminiscent of when I went to my first karate class, where my instructor taught me how to tie my belt, how to properly put on my gi, how to stand, how to sit. The marshal was doing the same kind of detailed instruction. Right away, that became one of those things for me where I thought, “Okay, if I can follow this and learn this, if I can be a marshal and help others understand how to be safe while doing a martial art, that’s something I would really like to do.”
When I finally ended up back in Billings – because, as I said, I traveled around and lived in other kingdoms and fought in other kingdoms – I had never been a marshal since I hadn’t stayed in one place long enough. But when I came back to Billings, the group I fought with, the barony called Bronshelm (back then it was the Shire of Bronzehelm), they had about eight or nine rapier fighters. The marshal had just stepped down, I had learned all the rules, and I’d been fighting for a few years. So at a meeting one night, I just put my hand up and said, “I can be that guy who does safety checks and reports, and I don’t mind doing it.” Because it’s all part of serving the community, helping the community progress, and making sure everybody stays safe so we can keep doing this.
I did that stint as marshal three times, and then recently I became the Barony Marshal again. Then a friend of mine who’s also in the SCA and fights with me regularly asked, “How would you feel about being the Kingdom Rapier Marshal?” We talked about it, and he basically said, “Be my deputy for a year or two, see how you like it.” So I did, and I found there’s a bit more to it, like writing rules, setting policies, and making sure I get all the reports from the various baronies and shires. That way, when rules come down from the Society for Creative Anachronism (the overall SCA organization), I help implement those rules in my kingdom and make them simpler for everyone to follow safely. So it’s a larger responsibility than just being a marshal for a shire or barony.
But the way I got into it was from the idea that if I can serve the greater community of rapier fighters beyond just my own local area, I want to do that. A lot of it comes from this mindset – not just playing the game, but also serving in a role where you help things move along and keep everything safe.
MAYTT: In terms of writing policy and writing rule sets, how often like do they need to be changed or updated?
LM: Well, oddly enough, not too terribly often. There’s a difference between the rules being changed and someone coming up with an experimental program, which I’ll explain in a second. For the most part, the rules we’ve had for rapier in the SCA haven’t changed much in the last thirty years. There have been some augmentations, a few things taken out, and a couple of additions. But really, nothing major has been removed.
I explained earlier that we went from foil and épée to Schlager swords, and that was a big rule change. The reason for that change was because foils and épées break, and they break really easily. I have a scar on my right leg above my knee to prove it. That injury went all the way to the bone, and I had to go to the hospital for it. It was a good one, too. So when Schlager swords were implemented across the entire SCA, that was a significant rule change. There were also some additions for armor, like neck protection and requirements for how much material we needed to have covering the core of our body. Those rule changes were made pretty early on and haven’t changed much since. So as far as rule changes go, they don’t happen very often. Sometimes when a new Kingdom Rulebook is released, small things are taken out or replaced, but those are minor adjustments.
I’ve also done some rewording of certain rules to make them clearer, but beyond that, the rule set we’ve used for the last thirty years saves a lot of effort and trouble. It’s easy to follow the rules from year to year. The real work in changing rules comes when someone proposes an experimental program. For example, only a few years ago, we started using spears in rapier combat. To get that off the ground, someone had to write a proposal outlining the type of spear with a specific rubber tip they wanted to use. Then they collected data and made sure everyone involved was safe. Regular reports were submitted, and the Kingdom Rapier Marshal (KRM) would go back and forth with that person, helping to collect data, review reports, and help write and refine the proposal. Eventually, the proposal would be submitted to the person in charge of martial combat for the entire kingdom, that’s the Earl Marshal. So, more than likely, a KRM gets involved in writing and refining rules when experimentation is taking place.
MAYTT: To clarify, the SCA rapier combat has remained consistent?
LM: Absolutely.
MAYTT: How important is the weapon combat experience to the overall SCA experience?
LM: I think in the SCA, combat is probably one of the most important aspects. I know that might sound kind of like a “guru combat” preachy type of thing, but it’s actually more rooted in tradition. The SCA actually got its start as a party in someone’s backyard. They were literally doing what – well, I don’t know if you did this as a kid – but when I was a kid, if I picked up a broomstick, it was either a lightsaber or a broadsword, you know what I mean?
MAYTT: I still do it.
LM: So these guys were literally doing that. Later on, much later after that party, they came up with the idea that they could pick kings and queens by right of arms, meaning by combat. The more they did this, the more it became a tradition, and this is where the armored community started. Their tradition is that they pick the king and queen by right of arms. So yeah, there’s definitely a fight involved, and without that, I don’t think we would have the monarchs we have or have had monarchs who help propel the game and make the society what it is. There’s combat, yes, but there’s also service, study, and all kinds of things you can do. Like I said, there are a thousand hobbies in this hobby. It’s really a tip of the hat to any history teacher you’ve ever had, you know what I mean? But the combat part of it, yeah, I think that is really important, more so these days, too. And this is where I get a little, I don’t know, maybe I sound preachy, but this is what I say when I talk to new people about the SCA or any martial art: the purpose of a martial art is to improve yourself so that you can improve your area or your community.
That is the one thing I took away from every martial art I studied. I didn’t necessarily care what belt I got in aikido; I enjoyed it, but my rank wasn’t the point. It was more about finding a way to put extra energy to good use. Plus, it was a good way for my dad to get rid of me three nights a week!
What I tell people in the SCA is that the fighting aspect is actually a good thing because it is a martial art. You learn a path, you study it, you put time and energy into it, and you test it regularly. Before you know it, you get involved in service, helping people, and making sure your overall community stays safe while doing it. That’s why I think the martial aspect is pretty important: it provides a place where that extra energy can go, and it helps the individual improve themselves. And that’s why the fighting or martial aspect is important.
MAYTT: How does the SCA compare the Renaissance Faire? What are the differences between the two movements?
LM: That’s a good question, and it has a lot of layers and maybe a lot of answers. You’ll probably come up with more questions after I talk. There are three Renaissance fairs that take place in my area, and we do demos at these fairs every year. Sometimes it gets to the point where I’m just kind of like, “I’m done peopling,” because there’s so much going on.
The first part of the answer is that at Renaissance fairs, there’s more of a fantasy influence. It’s more of a D&D-style LARPing vibe, you know what I mean? And honestly, I’m all for it. If I could spend six months out of the year in Middle Earth, I would. I’d hang out with the Dunedain or live in the White City, that’s probably where I’d live. So yeah, I’m down for that. But on the SCA side, what the SCA does is recreate the good parts of history, like learning combat styles, brewing, making clothes, and that kind of stuff, while leaving out the horrible parts, like the Black Plague and slavery. When I go to a Renaissance fair or participate in one, I notice the fantasy aspect, but I also see a difference in the community.
I wouldn’t say there isn’t community at Renaissance fairs because there definitely is. But the Ren fair community tends to focus more on pop culture and fantasy-oriented things. I see a lot of Harry Potter and Game of Thrones influences. I even know a guy who comes to the fair dressed as the Kurgan from Highlander. He looks great! It’s awesome. But if you watch the movie, the Kurgan was definitely a bad guy, a fantasy character, and that’s fine. Some of that fantasy stuff is rooted in history, but for me, I can’t go too far down that rabbit hole because I really like the actual history aspect.
So I think it comes back to living actual history or parts of actual history, as opposed to living in a fantasy world. There’s nothing wrong with the fantasy stuff, but for me, I was a Cub Scout and a Boy Scout. The things I learned there, I carry with me when I go camping. My fantasy stuff, like what my level seventeen rogue can do with a D20 and a bunch of D6s, that’s only good for talking with others at the gaming table. Meanwhile, I’ll run into some history friends from college who remind me of obscure facts about the Palace of Versailles or what was going on in Germany during the Thirty Years’ War, and I’m like, “Oh yeah, I remember that.” On the other hand, I have friends who’ll talk about Game of Thrones season two, episode three, and I just can’t follow it. My brain is more rooted in actual history.
For example, I’m sitting in Montana right now, and I know the town used to be called Coulson City. I know exactly where the divide between Coulson City and Billings is, and I understand what the railroad did for this town. That’s where I’m rooted, in actual history, not fantasy. Don’t get me wrong, going to Renaissance Faires is a huge amount of fun. I’ve made quite a few acquaintances and friends there. For many people, that’s their thing, and it’s awesome to see what they do. Like my friend who comes as the Kurgan, he’s all in, and it looks great. I appreciate that.
But yeah, that’s probably where I draw the line.
MAYTT: You mentioned doing demonstrations at the Ren Faire. How much interaction does the SCA have with Ren Faires? Or are the SCA, HEMA, and the Ren Faire appeal to the same crowds?
LM: I would say the appeal overlaps with some of the same crowds, very much so. Do I see people from Renaissance fairs joining the SCA, and people from the SCA attending Renaissance Faires? Yes, definitely. I’d estimate the crossover between some Renaissance fairs and the SCA is about 50/50. For example, in my area, one gentleman who is a knight in the SCA and fights armored combat with rattan is also the one who runs all three of the Renaissance fairs. So yes, we have definitely picked up people from Renaissance fairs who then join the SCA and fight with us. Likewise, there are plenty of people from the SCA who go to Renaissance fairs as well. There’s a lot of cross-play between the two.
However, one thing I’ve noticed – and I’m not sure why this is, and it’s not a conspiracy or anything – is that a lot of people involved in HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) don’t cross over into Renaissance fairs as much as people in the SCA do. In my personal opinion, this is because many people in HEMA, at least the ones I know, are more rooted in the study of the martial arts from the specific time period they focus on. So they tend to avoid a lot of the fantasy aspects. That said, I do know some friends who fight longsword and practice HEMA who have long discussions about The Witcher and the different types of longswords featured there. So there is a bit of that crossover, but overall, the folks I know in HEMA aren’t particularly into fantasy, which is why they don’t participate in Renaissance Faires as much as SCA members. I think this goes back to what I said earlier, that Dungeons & Dragons, fantasy books, and similar things often act like a “gateway” into the SCA. That’s kind of what I feel is going on in this respect.
MAYTT: Would you like to say anything else before we finish?
LM: I think I want to clarify something about rapier itself, specifically regarding the fighting format and how we’re using it. One thing I emphasize a lot when we’re picking up new styles and fighting formats is this: do whatever feels most comfortable for you. It doesn’t necessarily have to be a strict period style. I see a lot of people who do fight in period styles, but I also see many who use non-period styles and bring those elements into the SCA, applying them in their fighting format. Because it’s the Society for Creative Anachronism, the key word is creative. For example, I am a Black Tiger, and the fighting style I use is drawn from several different styles from all over. The person who created this style is Rob Childs, and if you spend any time in HEMA circles or even in the SCA, you’ll know that he really knows what he’s doing. He created a solid system. This isn’t a shameless plug; I just want to explain that when people come in and realize there are aspects of a period style they don’t want to or can’t do, they often bring their own interpretation to it. The important thing I make sure they understand is that their interpretation should always maintain a martial aspect. If you practice a technique a certain way, do it with a martial purpose. That way, you’re not just taking something without giving anything back.
I also want to reiterate how we started out learning from period texts in the beginning, and honestly, we weren’t doing it very well. But when people started translating those texts more clearly, it became something we could really work with, and it made much more sense. I just want to make sure no one thinks we’re just swinging swords around willy-nilly.
MAYTT: It is great that you saw to newer people that there is not just one way to fight or be in the SCA.
LM: That’s part of the openness of the SCA – this open format. I think that’s a big draw for me, having that freedom and leeway to do things your own way. I’m not trying to make a poor comparison, but I’ve had friends in HEMA who’ve told me they were criticized because their fighting style wasn’t exactly what it “should” be, you know what I mean? For example, if someone comes in and says, “I’m fighting the style Fabris did,” but it’s not exactly what Fabris did, I’ve heard that some HEMA schools aren’t very happy about that because they focus heavily on strict adherence to those styles. That’s mainly what they teach, and when they enter a HEMA competition, there’s a certain expectation. I don’t see or hear much of that kind of rigidity in the SCA. So in that way, I think the SCA really excels, it offers a more open format.
MAYTT: This has been a great conversation! Thank you!
LM: It’s been amazing!
This is the second part of a two part interview. Read the first part here.
Martial Arts of Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow 