Jacob McDonald first began training in empty-hand martial arts like karate and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu but then the “martial realities” of weapons-based arts took hold of him, finding an instructor with Jeremy Pace of Cymbrogi School of Western Martial Arts in Oklahoma. After returning to Maryland in 2017, McDonald established his Round Table Historical Fencing, then a branch of Pace’s Cymbrogi. As the pandemic hit, the schools’ students voiced their opinions and, after much discussion, McDonald ceased being a branch of Cymbrogi and was now his own entity. Today, McDonald took some time to discuss the impact of Pace on historical fencing, his experience trying to find a suitable practice place, and the future of HEMA. Images provided by Jacob McDonald and Kevin Rezac.
Martial Arts of Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow: Hello and welcome, Jacob! We are looking forward to the conversation today!
Jacob McDonald: As I am; thank you for having me.
MAYTT: You have a plethora of empty-handed martial arts experience, from boxing, karate, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, and wrestling. What was it about historical fencing that made you make the switch to a weapons-based martial art?
JM: I have always had a passion for empty-handed martial arts, and I still do; however, weapons-based practices bring a distinct focus on martial realities that fascinate me. Today, we see many martial arts frequently cater to the pull of sportification – a trend that doesn’t resonate with my philosophy. Ever since I was young, I have always been on a quest to find martial truths, and I’ve found weapons-based martial arts to be the most rewarding in this search.
MAYTT: In what ways did your previous martial arts training influence or enhance your understanding of historical fencing, if at all?
JM: My previous training has absolutely enhanced my understanding of historical fencing. When studying German Longsword and other various German weapons, it is evident that wrestling is a skill that was already known before learning how to use a weapon. Wrestling was extremely common and practiced since a young age in the Medieval Era. Having a background in grappling provided me a sense of comfort and understanding when fighting in close quarters with a weapon. Wrestling is a cornerstone of most medieval weapons, and to ignore this aspect truly limits our understanding of the art.
As far as my experience with striking martial arts, it has helped me with my footwork, explosivity, as well as understanding distance, measure, and how to set up various angles of attacks.
MAYTT: You ultimately found a historical fencing instructor in Jeremy Pace in Oklahoma City. What is Pace like as an instructor and how does he approach training?
JM: Jeremy Pace’s mentorship has been an invaluable experience in my journey in martial arts. I cherish the time I spent training at Cymbrogi School of Western Martial Arts in Oklahoma. Jeremy has developed a systematic approach to learning Kunst des Fecthen while pressure testing each technique. His focus on sparring and gradual incorporation of resistance and movement in drills ensures that every technique learned is combat-ready. Studying a martial art without sparring does not teach someone how to fight; rather, it teaches the theory of fighting.
Jeremy’s approach also focuses on explaining the underlying concepts of each weapon and the rationale behind each technique. This provides students with a broader understanding of the art, allowing them to adapt principles across different weapons. For instance, a Longsword can cut, thrust, slice, and pommel. Jeremy prides himself in the fact that his more experienced students can pick up any weapon, determine its functions, and apply the appropriate techniques.
I can go on and on about Jeremy and Cymbrogi, but I want to emphasize one further aspect of his instructional approach. Jeremy places the highest regard to defense and survival. You will see him refer to historical figures in weapon-based martial arts as “the masters of defense.” It is so easy to focus on how to attack and how to hit your opponent first. While this is important, Jeremy instills the necessity of doing so without compromising one’s safety. Demonstrating his faith in this defensive approach, you’ll frequently find Jeremy sparring with his students wearing minimal protective gear, often just a mask and gloves.
MAYTT: It seems like Pace is proficient in teaching what he wants students to remember. What you and your school have with Jeremy Pace is what a few HEMAists have labeled as a “living legacy.” These practitioners say that the movement is going to evolve into that. Do you feel this is the case or will the future of teaching and spreading HEMA be completely different?
JM: Living legacies are inevitable, especially with HEMA. We have breathed life back into arts that were lost to time. Each instructor will have a different interpretation of techniques and strategies. Furthermore, martial arts naturally evolve as more people innovate and reinterpret previous understandings. There is nothing wrong with a living legacy. It is the natural pattern of learning and teaching any skill.
MAYTT: When did you first begin teaching? What was the initial experience like and how do you feel you have grown from that?
JM: I began my journey of instructing in 2017. Opening a school has been challenging but incredibly rewarding. Like other instructors, I started out in a local park. It took a few months until I was able to transition to renting space from a karate school. Despite being indoors, the ceilings were too low, and we were tearing them up. Eventually, we had to move on and find another space. Honestly, finding a suitable location has been the most difficult aspect of starting a school. Running the school was not an issue. I am grateful for my time spent in Oklahoma learning from Jeremy as I was able to structure my curriculum and classes off his.
Through my years instructing, I have realized that the culture of the school is equally important to the material being taught in its classes. It takes conscious effort to create an environment where people feel welcomed and included while also fostering the desire to be challenged and pushed further. I take great pride in the culture we created at Round Table Historical Fencing. We share a level of comradery that is rare to find in life.
MAYTT: Creating an environment where people are welcomed and included is something that many HEMA schools and clubs stress. What was your approach to first establish that inclusive culture and how have you helped sustain that culture in your school?
JM: I’ve consistently emphasized respect and inclusivity, and I try to model this personally to set a clear example. For every new student coming in, I strive to have a conversation with them before class and get to know them a bit on a personal level. When a student then joins our club, I am mindful of them standing alone for long periods of time. I will make an effort to bring them into conversations already happening with other students.
Upon rebranding as Round Table Historical Fencing, I aimed to manifest the equality symbolized by our name. Open communication channels were established to encourage feedback and address concerns, ensuring that every member feels heard and valued. Decentralizing leadership fostered a sense of shared responsibility and communal growth. Outside of training, our monthly social events solidify bonds, further developing a culture where everyone belongs.
MAYTT: When did you open your school, Round Table Historical Fencing? What were some of the factors that led you to establish your school?
JM: I initially opened another branch of Cymbrogi School of Western Martial Arts in 2017 after moving back home to Frederick, Maryland. We trained under Jeremy’s name for a few years until the pandemic. During the pandemic, I was unable to instruct classes for a couple of months due to my wife being immunocompromised. This was a little bit of a wakeup call in realizing how dependent the school was on me. As I reflected during those months off, I concluded that I wanted a more community approach to the operations of the school. I did not want the future of the school to rest solely on one person. So, I reached out to some of my students expressing my desire to decentralize leadership. Since I was bringing in other instructors, I knew that our material no longer be the same as Cymbrogi’s. After speaking with Jeremy, we came to the agreement that we would branch off and create our own club. With our community-focused perspective and leadership being divided among the members, it was fitting to re-name our club as Round Table Historical Fencing.
MAYTT: It sounds like it was a positive turn of events. You have an extensive competitive record. How important do you feel competition is to one’s experience during their time in HEMA? Is someone missing out if they are not competing?
JM: Tournaments are a wonderful tool. They give us the ability to pressure test our art and fight new opponents. However, almost all tournaments are flawed in some way. Typically, these flaws lie in the rulesets and judging. Judging a weapons-based martial art is a very difficult task to do well. Throw in complex rules, and your result is inconsistent and poor calls.
As far as missing out, I would still say yes. By not competing, you are missing out in the ability to see how you line up in comparison to your peers. You are missing out in determining if your art can hold true under the pressure of competition. I have seen amazing fighters break to this pressure. You never really know how you will perform until you try.
One final note on tournaments. Tournaments should not be viewed as the ultimate benchmark of mastery as they always favor athletic and explosive fighters.
MAYTT: Having experienced historical fencing in the Midwest and on the East Coast, did you notice any differences between the two regions’ style or interpretation of historical fencing?
JM: While I haven’t noticed a large difference in the style of historical fencing, the culture surrounding HEMA does vary. East Coast tournaments, in my experience, seem to be gradually sportifying and becoming something more akin to Olympic Fencing. A focus is being placed on simply touching the opponent rather than making a quality hit. I have seen some tournament rulesets award points for blade contact with fabric. Competitors are consistently scrutinized for having power behind attacks. This trend is almost nonexistent in the Midwest, but it’s increasingly evident in the Mid-Atlantic region.
MAYTT: Is there a way to combat this transition to a more sports-based tournament culture to Olympic Fencing of is this something the community needs to experience before more historical fencers prefer more martial fencing?
JM: The drift towards sportification in HEMA, like many martial arts, often stems from an overemphasis on point-based competitions and a desire for standardization. A way to combat this trend lies in expanding our events and focusing more on sparring camps with instructional classes. These settings allow more opportunities to emphasize the martial realities our historical texts illuminate. While tournaments naturally encourage participants to find success through specific rulesets, sparring camps encourage a deeper, broader grasp of martial techniques. To me, this creates a balance between practicality and tradition. Sparring camps can even have a friendly tournament with the emphasis still being placed on the camp and not the tournament. These types of events are already happening throughout the United States with events such as Brass Frog, the American Smallsword Symposium, and Texas Sword Retreat.
MAYTT: I see. Who do you feel is an influential historical fencer in the Northeast? What sets these individuals apart from their peers? And to a larger extent, who do you feel is influential at the national level?
JM: This is a challenging question for me to answer. I tend to stay focused on my club and I am not as tuned in to the popularity of historical fencers. Most of the talented historical fencers I know also do not focus on influencing the masses. Nonetheless, one of the greatest historical fencers in the Northeast is Patrick Bratton, head instructor of Sala della Spada in Carlisle, PA.
Patrick Bratton has decades of experience with historical, classical, and Olympic fencing. He has traveled the world learning from the best. He has mastered multiple weapons and teaches their techniques in simple and easy to understand ways. I have personally traveled to attend some of his classes, and I have brought him in to teach a workshop in Montante for my club. Additionally, he has proven his success in numerous tournaments.
Nationally, I am biased and will have to say Jeremy Pace. Jeremy is currently ranked first in the United States and seventh in the world in Longsword. His skill transcends himself and many of his students are also ranked in the Top 100 Longsword fencers. Jeremy hosts one of the largest tournaments in the nation and his commitment to maintaining the martial integrity of HEMA is admirable. I am privileged to know some of Jeremy’s aspirations for HEMA, and I am excited to watch them unfold.
MAYTT: How have you seen HEMA grow in the Northeast?
JM: HEMA, just like many other martial arts, was hit hard during the pandemic in the Northeast. Many schools had to pause classes and growth slowed down significantly. Even before the pandemic, the leaders and facilitators of Longpoint, the nation’s largest HEMA tournament, decided to disband. Regardless, there still has been growth in the region. I have seen more and more clubs and schools emerge. Personally, my own club has increased in size, and I have received tons of requests from local communities to provide demonstrations for their events. The word of historical fencing is spreading and gaining more interest from the public.
MAYTT: To a larger extent, how have you seen HEMA grow in the last ten years, nationwide?
JM: It is night and day when comparing HEMA today to ten years ago. Ten years ago, everything was limited. Schools, gear, weapons, books… Literally everything. No one knew what HEMA was or how to go about learning it. Today, we have the HEMA Alliance’s Club Finder where individuals can find clubs in their area, free and open access to translations of historical manuals through Wiktenauer, an international ranking system, numerous vendors for gear and weapons, countless YouTube channels, and year-round tournaments throughout all regions of the US. There’s even a video game for HEMA now. HEMA went from a niche interesting hobby to a full-fledged martial art.
MAYTT: Looking to the future, where do you think HEMA will go in the next five years?
JM: HEMA is destined to see continued growth and evolution over the next five years, building on the momentum of the previous decade. I think HEMA will have a boom in popularity within the next few years. This will most likely occur through pop culture. Shows like Game of Thrones, House of the Dragon, and The Witcher are already starting to incorporate true historical techniques into their fight choreography.
Aside from growth in interest, I am hoping to see a deeper integration with academia. I want to see more research into historical fighting techniques, weapons, and armor. Without a focus on the historical aspects of HEMA, I do fear that HEMA will follow the path of sportification and transform into another version of Olympic Fencing.
MAYTT: Final question; in your opinion, how will the further incorporation of academia into the movement help dissuade any further sportification in HEMA?
JM: Integrating academia will ground HEMA to the historical roots of our art. Academia inherently emphasizes research, analysis, and as Matt Easton may agree, it promotes a commitment to understanding context. However, our current competitions, with all the protective gear, don’t truly replicate the conditions or risks of historical unarmored combat. This protective equipment is certainly essential for safety, but it influences our techniques and strategies. This can lead to deviating from historical accuracy. Sport-based evolution, combined with these safety measures, tends to streamline techniques for points and efficiency within a ruleset, sometimes sidelining martial practicality. An academic foundation reinforces the importance of understanding the original contexts. If we narrow our focus solely to what works in modern competitions, we risk deviating from HEMA’s original purpose.
MAYTT: Thank you for speaking with us about HEMA!
JM: Thank you for having me!
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