Glen Matsuda began training aikido in 1970 at the Illinois Aikido Club. In four years, he would follow his local teacher in the transition to Ki Society and it was there that he found Fumio Toyoda. Today, Matsuda talks about his journey with Toyoda, the forming of the Aikido Association of America, Toyoda’s teaching methodology, and the future of the organization with his son, Stephen, at the helm.
Martial Arts of Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow: Welcome Matsuda Sensei! Thank you for joining us!
Glen Matsuda: It’s great to be here.
MAYTT: You first began training aikido in 1970. What inspired you to take up this art? What continues to motivate you to train today?
GM: My father had actually got me into judo. I then met a friend in high school who was a first kyu in Aikido and he talked me into going to a class and I enjoyed that class. I stopped judo and continued with aikido mainly because, for some reason, the practice, the techniques, and everything else fit my personality. There’s just something about it that it’s just a good match.
MAYTT: Fast forward four years and you start to train under Fumio Toyoda. What was it about Toyota Shihan that drew you to him in the first place?
GM: Actually, what happened is we were part of the Illinois Aikido Club. Akira Tohei was the chief instructor and several of the senior students decided that they wanted to split off and form the Chicago Ki Aikido Society. The most senior guy was my mentor; all the four years that I was training, he was the one who was teaching me the most. So, it was my choice to go with him. That’s why I ended up going with the thought of something. And then when Toyoda Sensei came to Chicago, he became the chief instructor, and I just stayed with him.
MAYTT: When you split from Akira Tohei to Ki Society, was there any difference in training or approaches to training? Or was it similar to what you were doing beforehand?
GM: Well, they were very different teachers. Akira Tohei Sensei was a typical Japanese instructor. He would show something and then just expect people to emulate him. Toyoda Sensei tended to explain a little bit more, but there were times where it was just shut up and practice. But Toyoda Sensei tended to explain more.
The other thing is that he developed a training program, or a teaching methodology, in his organization. All of us who began teaching would follow this methodology and help develop the organization. I think Toyoda Sensei’s main goal was the development of instructors – that was his main purpose for having the organization. He felt it was his job to help spread the art of Aikido; the only way you could do it at a high technical level is to develop the instructors properly.
MAYTT: Under that method of instruction, did you feel that you gained a better knowledge, or a better understanding of aikido compared to that of Akira Tohei beforehand?
GM: I would say yes in the sense that through teaching, you understand what the art is about. It’s not so much just practice and figure it out. As we all found out, you learn a lot more by teaching and that’s why he kept pushing us to go out and teach. Even now, to this day, we still have a test requirement that you have to have a certain amount of teaching to get promoted. It’s still part of our test requirements.
MAYTT: Regarding Toyoda’s teaching approach, was he able to meet students where they were in their training as opposed to following a standardized guideline of techniques?
GM: Yes and no. At first, he would meet them where they were, and then that would help him determine how serious they were about developing. He was the type who would attract people from other organizations, and they would join our organization. It indicated that he had a way of being with people – a way of teaching and connecting with them that kept them in the organization. It got to the point where we had about ninety dojos in the Us and about thirty in Europe. He said that he was only second to Yasuo Kobayashi because he had about 250 dojos around the world. Ours was the second biggest on the international scale, outside of Hombu Dojo.
MAYTT: That is amazing. Did Toyoda have that draw before he established his organization or was it only after he established his Aikido Association of America (AAA) did he have that influx of schools?
GM: It was him. He had that charisma, that way of connecting with people. His ability to connect with me was amazing. He wouldn’t see somebody for four years and know their name and remember details about them. He did that around the world. I mean, he had an amazing memory.
MAYTT: Leading up to Toyoda’s founding of the AAA, how much interaction did he and his students have with other aikidoka from Ki Society, Aikikai, or Yoshinkan, or was it Ki Society-centric?
GM: It was pretty much Ki Society central. Toyoda Sensei and Koichi Tohei parted ways in 1976 because that year, Toyoda Sensei founded the Aikido Association of America. After that, he would go around and have seminars and then people from other organizations would come see him, take a seminar, and then from there, they would decide to lead their organizations and join up with the AAA.
He did not actively recruit, but he just went around and just had seminars all over the place. People would just come to him. He couldn’t be accused of stealing other dojos because it would be the dojos that would leave.
MAYTT: When he departed from the Ki Society, who sponsored him to lead seminars?
GM: He would actually start to recruit people or have seminars, and people would get to know him. They would invite him to have a seminar. That’s how it expanded. I think even in the Ki Society, he got to know people in Arizona and California, so that set the groundwork there. And then the same thing on the East Coast; he would have Ki Society seminars in New York and New Jersey and people from other organizations would come and visit.
MAYTT: How were those interactions with those aikido organizations? Obviously, they are coming out to learn from Toyoda, but were they cordial interactions?
GM: For the most part, it was very cordial. I can only speak from the Northeast, from our perspective. It was like, “Thank you for helping us pay for the seminar. [Laughs] Glad to have you!” Then it would go from there. The only ones where there was a little bit of friction would have been with the USAF and the ASU because they were well established beforehand. They were kind of nervous about Toyoda Sensei stealing their dojos.
MAYTT: Did Toyoda have any previous relationship or contact with Yoshimitsu Yamada or Mitsugi Saotome in Japan or were they already a generation apart?
GM: They were a generation apart. I think Toyoda Sensei did a lot of his training with Koichi Tohei. I think Yoshimitsu Yamada and Mitsugi Saotome were already in the US. I know Yamada was already in the US, I forget when Saotome came to the US.
MAYTT: You followed your own teacher into Ki Society; did Toyoda mention anything about his motivations or his reasoning as to why he followed Koichi Tohei as opposed to staying with Hombu Dojo?
GM: My understanding of that history was that Tohei Sensei studied at the Ichi Kukai Temple in Japan, where he did a lot of misogi, breathing, and Zen training. Toyoda Sensei studied there too. I think because of this background, the breathing and everything else, he was attracted more to Tohei. Even though he told us that it was uchi deshi under Ueshiba Kisshomaru Doshu, he decided to follow Tohei Sensei. My understanding is he got sent to Hawaii to do a lot of Ki Society training, seminars, and other places so that when Chicago asked for an instructor, Tohei Sensei decided to send Toyoda Sensei.
MAYTT: With his relocation to Chicago, did Toyoda mention any stories of him trying to acclimate to the city or any obstacles that he faced while trying to build up Ki-Aikido there?
GM: Well, I do know that that at the beginning was kind of tough. There were three gentlemen who actually funded the dojo and supported Toyoda while he got started. They were the old school way of thinking. They came from the Illinois Aikido Club, which was a nonprofit. They were used to having a board of directors interact with the chief instructor and guiding the development of the dojo. Toyoda Sensei said, “No. This is my view. This is what I want to do.” There was a big clash and when all the original supporters took off, Toyoda Sensei took on the business for himself and decided doing it the way he wanted to do it. In terms of member growth and everything, it really started to develop after that.
In those early days, I really don’t remember a lot, mainly because I was in college. I couldn’t spend a whole lot, a lot of time at the dojo. I know Jim Matrassco and Cheryl were part of the original members of that group. Cheryl, I think, is still teaching at Northwestern University. Others would be Keith Moore, Mark Pandolfi, John Mazza, and Lis Menning; they were very central to the core of those early days of training. They were the deshi under Toyoda Sensei. Another one, before I forget, was Keith Moore, now Meido Moore. They could probably give you a lot of information about what it was like with Toyoda Sensei.
MAYTT: For you, what was it like training under Toyoda?
GM: It could be very intense for me. He rolled me pretty hard. I like to think because he saw potential that I was holding back, and he was trying to break me loose on that. I was very introverted, kind of unsure of myself. I trained that way too. I think he was just trying to break me out of my shell. As a result, he was harsh on me. I’ve come to realize that he was not the instructor I wanted, he was the instructor I needed. I’m where I am because of it.
MAYTT: With that in mind, what do you feel was the most impactful lesson that you learned from him that has affected you on either your understanding of aikido or something that you have applied in everyday life?
GM: Whenever I would talk to him about what plans or thoughts that I had, his first question always was, “What is your intention?” And at those times, “Well, I just want to do this.” Whatever it was. But what I came to understand many years later was that it’s not just the desire to do this – this particular thing – but what is your motivation? Deep down, why are you trying to do this? What are you trying to accomplish? And do you have everything lined up? “What is your intention” means you got to know what the hell you’re doing or have a clear idea of what you want to do. Even in my personal life, I’ll start to think about something I want to do, and that question always pops up; “What is my intention?” Then I have to look at it further and deeper; what do I really want to accomplish and how am I going to get there? So, it just really helps clarify plans and on what to do.
MAYTT: On the topic of training, in your opinion, is aikido the same art as it was when you first began training, or has it become something different altogether?
GM: I can see the same thing, only different. It’s the same in the sense that the techniques are the same, but it’s different in that the people who are teaching it are putting their own imprint on it, their own interpretation. What I see is that overall aikido is the same, but it’s different in terms of the individual practice. Each teacher has their own flavor that they put on it. The thing I say at every seminar is, “It’s not right, it’s not wrong, it’s different. It’s not good, it’s not bad, it’s different. It’s not better, it’s not worse, just different.” It’s their way of interpreting it, their way of practicing it. And there’s nothing wrong with it. Just like there’s nothing wrong with how I practice. It’s just our individual interpretation.
MAYTT: Is that what you feel is Toyoda’s vision of aikido? Or did he have a different perspective on that?
GM: Yes, only because the other thing here always told us is, “You have to find your own aikido.” In fact, there was a story that was related to me: there was a test and Toyoda Sensei asked him what aikido he is doing. The testee replies, “I’m doing your aikido.” “Don’t do my aikido. It’s important to have your own aikido. If you do my aikido, I’m going to sue you because it’s copyrighted.” [Laughs]
Even with himself, he would say, “Every year is different.” He would always find a way to develop his aikido and do it differently. Every Instructor Seminar he would show something, and we would say, “Sensei, you showed us this way last year.” He would say, “That was last year. This is this year. Do it this way.” He was always trying to develop, which is one of the reasons why he never really wanted any of his stuff be recorded and taped because he figured if people would get a hold of that, they would look at that and emulate that and then never change. He didn’t want people to get stuck in a particular way, which is his way of encouraging us to always, develop, be different, and make it better.
MAYTT: Throughout those developments, did he still pertain to the core principles of aikido that he ascribed to or was it majorly different from year to year?
GM: The core of it was the same being that you don’t have the Ki Society training. He also started training with Tanouye Rotaishi with Zen. Soon, Zen training became central to how he did his technique. The core of his training and everything to me was just the energy presence and the balance every time he executed his technique.
MAYTT: There were some consistencies, it is the way that those techniques were performed were different from year to year.
GM: Right. I think what we could say is the internal part of it was consistent. The external was always developing. The external is what we saw and what we tried to emulate and then getting confused on why he is changing it. Why is he doing this instead of that? We asked these questions without really considering what’s going on inside the guy and trying to emulate the external part. The only way we can get to the internal is through the external; through the technique and practicing it. Then we can start to figure out what’s going on inside.
MAYTT: Speaking of the internal, was there an emphasis on ki with Toyoda or was it based more on the external?
GM: Well, when we first saw the Ki Society, he would actually have three classes a week, three hours a week of nothing but Ki Society stuff: ki testing, meditation, all the stuff that was central to the Ki Society. We kept that even after we left; we kept that as part of the test requirements. For example, for second kyu, you still had to be able to demonstrate and discuss what is misogi, what is breathing, what is meditation? You still have to be able to look at that and do it. We still do all the exercises with the ki testing; that is still central to our organization.
But then by like the late 1980s or so, it started to drift away. He started to get away from it, even though we kept it as part of the test requirements and part of the teaching requirements. To me, if it weren’t for that training at the Ki Society, I don’t think I could have survived because understanding that core gave me the foundations that as he developed and got his techniques going, got my techniques going. I couldn’t have had a better understanding of why and what goes on inside the techniques.
MAYTT: You mentioned that the ki aspects are still part of the curriculum and testing requirements. Are those drills and exercises still being taught and covered as they once were in the 1970s and 1980s?
GM: It has changed I think only because of that era, I’m one of very few people left in the organization. One of my goals and intentions is to keep that knowledge going. A colleague of mine, James Nakayama Sensei, in California was at a seminar in Rhode Island, and he told the instructor that he needs to get better at his forms and exercises. The instructor asked what he should do. Nakayama Sensei said, “Go talk to Glen.” The Rhode Island instructor came to me. I actually did a workshop for about three hours a day for about four weeks. I went there once a month and we did something different, and I actually went through what the forms were, broke them down, and how to teach them – basically a whole presentation on that. I think I’m the only one who’s still actively and directly working on teaching the Ki Society exercises. Every time my students go to Chicago, they look at them and it’s like, “How do you know that?” Then it gets to the point that they know they’re from New York and they’re my students. They know this stuff.
I’m letting other people know, giving them information slowly. I have a training program where I take my students and put them through all the ki test requirements from seventh kyu up to second kyu. This is what it is. This is what it looks like. This is how you do it. They know it’s a training program, so that by the time they get to become certified as a teaching assistant, they know how to do these things.
MAYTT: On that note, is the Northeastern Division Teaching Committee still active?
GM: The teaching committees don’t really exist anymore only because we don’t have a whole lot of seniors to support it. But I’m still considered what Tatsuo Stephen Toyoda Sensei refers to as shibucho, which means that I’m the senior on the East Coast.
But in terms of a teaching committee, there’s only, I think, two of us who are really qualified to be able to teach. We are trying to develop more people, but in the West, the Midwest and the East, there’s probably only two to three, maybe four, most who are senior enough to be able to help people develop. In terms of the teaching committee that it’s been pretty well decimated since this past pandemic
MAYTT: I apologize. How have you seen instruction in the AAA fluctuate since Toyoda’s passing?
GM: It has been a struggle because since Stephen took over; it’s fallen on us seniors to keep things going. Again, we each have our individual interpretations of what Toyoda Sensei taught us. I think that people are still trying to figure out what the core is and really understand it. I think it’s not until they come to Chicago for the national instructor seminar and see all of us together, that they really start to see what it is that our organization is trying to do.
Steven is doing his best to keep the teaching going. I think he’s been doing an excellent job. It’s just our responsibility to support him and keep him going. Twice a year, he has seminars outside of the instructor seminar, and he invites us old timers to teach so that people can see what the structure was like in the past.
But in terms of where it’s going, I think that Steven is developing his own style, his own way of teaching, and that’s going to be the future of the organization. And there’s enough foundation from his father that I think we’re going to be OK, because I have a whole lot of appreciation and respect for what Stephen’s trying to do.
MAYTT: 2001 was Toyoda’s passing. How could you describe the overall feeling within the organization when that happened and what the immediate aftermath that followed?
GM: Obviously, there was a lot of upset and a lot of questions about what was going to happen. In terms of continuity, Andy Sato stepped in and took over, which, in a way, was a surprise to us because we thought Keith Moore would do it. But Andy Sato kind of shut out Keith and took over. Andy lasted maybe two or three years then he left. Mrs. Toyoda and Steven took over the organization. At that time, I think Stephen was sandan or just made sandan. Here’s this poor kid trying to run the organization, but that’s where the rest of us – the seniors – stepped in and said, “We’re going to support you in this; we’ll help you out.”
MAYTT: From that point, and you did touch on this before, how have you seen Stephen Toyoda grow as an aikidoka and the leader of the organization?
GM: When I talk to people about it, my comment is that his aikido has developed wonderfully. He is an amazing leader; he’s got social skills and interactions that surpass his father. His father, being full Japanese and everything, was kind of rough. Like, my way or the highway. But Stephen got this way of interacting with people, and there’s just a lot of charisma. part of the organization is the Japanese Cultural Center, which he tries to increase the visibility of the arts. Stephen has gotten to the point where I think Japan’s Ministry of Tourism is on the verge of naming him the Midwest Representative for them. This kid is amazing.
MAYTT: How else have you seen him help expand or better solidify the organization in the wake of his father’s passing?
GM: One of the things that I appreciate is he’s still supporting us. Yasuo Kobayashi is still our advisor, so all promotions have to be approved by him. But Stephen has done a lot to support us in that way. He would actually go to Kobayashi and say, “Can we promote these guys?” and Kobayashi would approve it. I mean, Stephen’s been involved with promoting me twice; so, in terms of keeping us moving forward and supporting us, I think that’s the biggest thing that he’s been able to do. As a result, we’re very loyal to him and help support the organization by still trying to keep what his father taught. As a leader, Stephen is just phenomenal; along with that his aikido is improving too and it’s getting to a point where it’s like he’s got his own style, his own interpretation.
MAYTT: That is great to hear! Going back a bit, when Toyoda founded his organization, how did you and the other students at the time receive the news?
GM: I think the most common answer was, “Yes, Sensei! This is what you want to do, we’ll support you.” He set it up so that our main job was to train, and his job was with politics and the development of the organization. When we got to the point where we could help support that organization. Otherwise, he would just say, “Don’t worry, just train.” In that sense, he was a very shrewd businessman.
MAYTT: Everyone was alright with the transition and Toyoda was primarily into the business side of things, making sure everything was being kept up.
GM: Right, right. Then, people who did question that, he would explain it. His intention was to have teaching standards to be at a very high level and in order for the standards to be high, we had to be good. We students trained hard to be as best as we could be, to the level he wanted, and the organization would take care of itself.
MAYTT: He then established teaching committees to help raise the standards?
GM: Right. With the teaching committees, it’s a matter of standardizing it too. When somebody did a technique in the Northeast, it was very similar to what they did in Southern California or down in Texas.
MAYTT: For the newer and younger aikidoka, what would you tell them about Toyoda’s contributions to the aikido community? Why do you feel these contributions are important for future aikidoka to remember?
GM: My most common answer to that is he was a genius in establishing the methodology in terms of presenting the ki testing and the Ki Society material in terms of how to teach. He had this methodology. I think the biggest thing to say about his methodology is his statement, “If you cannot demonstrate that technique, you can’t teach it.” His point was to make the technique as good as you can, and then that’s what you teach. If you just try to talk to somebody through a technique that you can’t do, it’s just worthless or it’s not going to come out the way you want it to. For me, it goes back to an intention – what is your intention with this technique? if you want your students to do it this way you gotta do it that way. To me, it’s just a matter of if you want quality technique, you have to be a quality teacher.
MAYTT: Absolutely. It is basically being the model for all your students.
GM: If I had to summarize what he wanted his teaching methodology to be, that would be my interpretation of it.
MAYTT: From that, how have you used Toyoda’s methodology in your own teaching in your own dojo?
GM: Just if I can’t demonstrate it, I can’t teach it. I’m always looking at how I can make my technique better; how I can improve it. The question underlying it always is, “how is this gonna make me a better teacher?” When I did the Zen training, “How is this gonna make me a better teacher?” When I did calligraphy, “How is this gonna make me a better aikido teacher?” Right now, I am doing some half-ass training in kyudo because I haven’t been going often enough. But it still comes back to, “How is this going to improve my abilities as an aikido teacher?”
MAYTT: Final question; what do you feel is Toyoda’s legacy within the larger aikido community?
GM: The only way I can answer that is his legacy is us – those of us who carry on after him and how we present and interpret aikido with his influence. I don’t know how other people look at him, how other organizations look at him. In some ways, he was such a renegade that I think he created resentment in other organizations. But there were people in the US who did support him.
MAYTT: Thank you for this conversation on Toyoda, Matsuda Sensei!
GM: Thank you for having me.
To learn more about aikido and its history in America, click here.
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